“There is a cause only in something that doesn’t work" The point of a hitch in causality, a limp, a troubled causality, and this is precisely where Lacan situated the object a
In the political realm, the blue state migration turns a red to purple. The mixing colors of "Christ-centered" migration does the same.... we humans can't help it. Too many colors mixed = grey... the lukewarm church.
Yet, I love when Jordan describes how the church he attends is filled with people who have "just found" themselves there.... inexplicably.... I love that energy!
What are the things we are afraid of? What is it we do not want to lose or to re-emerge as the tides of faith roll back in? That's what I tend to see, so much want and fear. There are real risk in rebuilding our world. What is ok to let in? What is ok to leave out? In the end it seems there is some expectation that the perfect answer will be found. I do not believe that happens in this world. This world will still be broken. Despite that, in Christ we find we are saved.
Are you suggesting that "industrial Christianity" or a mechanization of how Ecclesial and ministry is conducted is inevitable?
I do think there is a qualitative difference between mechanization in say monasticism, trying to generate a reproducible and scalable practice of devotion, and the way that modern church growth or Tim Keller-esque governance models operate.
I also think there may be a through line where an overly confessional or doctrinal emphasis , whether it's Calvinist or Orthodox, can lead to this "decoupling from trust, care and relationships".
May God bring prophets who can speak into this tendency, check it, and may church leaders have the wisdom and humility to listen to the prophets when they come.
I don't know. As a professional cleric to one degree or another I'm a product and promotor of Industrial Christianity. So are Youtubers whether ordained or not.
A lot going on, isn’t there? I was raised Catholic and then accidentally wandered into New Calvinism in my late 20s, so I find all these currents and cross-currents so interesting. I appreciate the generational context you placed it all in, because I lack knowledge of some the background events I never saw.
I agree that my business is with Isengaard. This makes me sound properly heroic, thank you.
I am not clear though on what you actually mean here by 'industrial Christianity', and how it differs from 'Christian civilisation.' Maybe you could draw this out. Or maybe we will draw it out in Galway.
A lot of the pushback against my talk seems to have avoided its main point. Maybe deliberately. That point was simply that, in Ohiyesa's words, 'Christianity and modern civilisation are opposed and irreconcilable.' We can choose one set of values or the other. This seems crystal clear in any honest reading of the gospels.
So you can pursue the ARC-ist vision of a retvrn to free markets, 90s era liberalism and muscular geopolitical Western power, but you don't get to pretend that has anything to do with what the Nazarene was telling us, or doing himself.
This seems quite obvious to me, and straightforward, so it has been interesting to see so many people obfuscating the issue (not you). Seems you have to work quite hard to get Jesus to be not actually saying what he actually said!
Paul, I’m a Johnny come lately on this post, literally, but all of this is simply a misunderstanding regarding the ascetic life. Asceticism is the seed for Christian living and that living will of course end in something called culture. But sort of like a Magic Johnson look away dish, we should never focus on the civilization part lest we tip off the devil and his defenders. The demons love a focused builder (see Babylon). A true Christians dream is crucifixion. That’s all Paul is trying to say. And that dream might just end in something approximating Christian. Or not. But who cares!
Western Christianity keeps building civilization in lieu of monasteries. (See Henry number 8 for more on that).
Dear Paul - I have immense moving heart as I see Paul & Martin & yourself mulling, pondering, wondering, praying about gathering with one another (2, 3, more in His name) to seek Him in one another and human concepts ("culture", "Christianity") together 🙏🏼. This seems a precious thing & quite heart-giving to us toilers that voices we respond to in the body are exhibiting such love and care and concern (sacredness, even) toward convening & sharing veins. God bless you each. May He be clearly arriving and Emmanuel as you break bread & whiskey in His presence 🙏🏼☦️♥️
May God bless your trip to Ireland, your ‘converzations’, your ministry, your ‘parish’ and your family.
Keen to hear your thoughts on Ireland as a place, a culture, a Christian Nation and a post-Christian nation just as you did after your recent trip to Italy. American eyes on the British Isles often give interesting perspectives.
“There is a cause only in something that doesn’t work" The point of a hitch in causality, a limp, a troubled causality, and this is precisely where Lacan situated the object a
In the political realm, the blue state migration turns a red to purple. The mixing colors of "Christ-centered" migration does the same.... we humans can't help it. Too many colors mixed = grey... the lukewarm church.
Yet, I love when Jordan describes how the church he attends is filled with people who have "just found" themselves there.... inexplicably.... I love that energy!
What are the things we are afraid of? What is it we do not want to lose or to re-emerge as the tides of faith roll back in? That's what I tend to see, so much want and fear. There are real risk in rebuilding our world. What is ok to let in? What is ok to leave out? In the end it seems there is some expectation that the perfect answer will be found. I do not believe that happens in this world. This world will still be broken. Despite that, in Christ we find we are saved.
Hi Paul, thanks for this piece
Are you suggesting that "industrial Christianity" or a mechanization of how Ecclesial and ministry is conducted is inevitable?
I do think there is a qualitative difference between mechanization in say monasticism, trying to generate a reproducible and scalable practice of devotion, and the way that modern church growth or Tim Keller-esque governance models operate.
I also think there may be a through line where an overly confessional or doctrinal emphasis , whether it's Calvinist or Orthodox, can lead to this "decoupling from trust, care and relationships".
May God bring prophets who can speak into this tendency, check it, and may church leaders have the wisdom and humility to listen to the prophets when they come.
I don't know. As a professional cleric to one degree or another I'm a product and promotor of Industrial Christianity. So are Youtubers whether ordained or not.
A lot going on, isn’t there? I was raised Catholic and then accidentally wandered into New Calvinism in my late 20s, so I find all these currents and cross-currents so interesting. I appreciate the generational context you placed it all in, because I lack knowledge of some the background events I never saw.
I agree that my business is with Isengaard. This makes me sound properly heroic, thank you.
I am not clear though on what you actually mean here by 'industrial Christianity', and how it differs from 'Christian civilisation.' Maybe you could draw this out. Or maybe we will draw it out in Galway.
A lot of the pushback against my talk seems to have avoided its main point. Maybe deliberately. That point was simply that, in Ohiyesa's words, 'Christianity and modern civilisation are opposed and irreconcilable.' We can choose one set of values or the other. This seems crystal clear in any honest reading of the gospels.
So you can pursue the ARC-ist vision of a retvrn to free markets, 90s era liberalism and muscular geopolitical Western power, but you don't get to pretend that has anything to do with what the Nazarene was telling us, or doing himself.
This seems quite obvious to me, and straightforward, so it has been interesting to see so many people obfuscating the issue (not you). Seems you have to work quite hard to get Jesus to be not actually saying what he actually said!
Paul, I’m a Johnny come lately on this post, literally, but all of this is simply a misunderstanding regarding the ascetic life. Asceticism is the seed for Christian living and that living will of course end in something called culture. But sort of like a Magic Johnson look away dish, we should never focus on the civilization part lest we tip off the devil and his defenders. The demons love a focused builder (see Babylon). A true Christians dream is crucifixion. That’s all Paul is trying to say. And that dream might just end in something approximating Christian. Or not. But who cares!
Western Christianity keeps building civilization in lieu of monasteries. (See Henry number 8 for more on that).
Love ya tall brother!
Dear Paul - I have immense moving heart as I see Paul & Martin & yourself mulling, pondering, wondering, praying about gathering with one another (2, 3, more in His name) to seek Him in one another and human concepts ("culture", "Christianity") together 🙏🏼. This seems a precious thing & quite heart-giving to us toilers that voices we respond to in the body are exhibiting such love and care and concern (sacredness, even) toward convening & sharing veins. God bless you each. May He be clearly arriving and Emmanuel as you break bread & whiskey in His presence 🙏🏼☦️♥️
https://open.substack.com/pub/paulkingsnorth/p/the-gulf-and-the-silence?r=1g3mgk&utm_medium=ios&utm_campaign=post
https://open.substack.com/pub/martinshaw/p/none-of-this-is-real?r=1g3mgk&utm_medium=ios&utm_campaign=post
Hi Paul,
Good to see you writing on Substack.
May God bless your trip to Ireland, your ‘converzations’, your ministry, your ‘parish’ and your family.
Keen to hear your thoughts on Ireland as a place, a culture, a Christian Nation and a post-Christian nation just as you did after your recent trip to Italy. American eyes on the British Isles often give interesting perspectives.